Left-wing religious nutbags

From Annie Lamott:

This nation does not need left-wing religious nutbags like myself to point out that anytime, and anywhere, you see the poorest of the poor suffering, living in unsurvivable loss and misery, tortured by neglect and platitudes, that you are witnessing the suffering of the Christ.

Comments

[Hector]

This is timeless. Although Christ is in all of us, he is so muvh more present in "the poorest of the poor." Given the post above this one, also in the forgotten...

[Peterson Toscano]

Religious conservatives often ask same-gender loving people, "How do you justify your lifestyle with the scriptures?"

Yeah, it is hard for me; I spend more money each month on soy lattes than on feeding the poor. How does any Christian in America Justify his or her lifestyle? Have we read the words of Jesus recently?

"When you do this to the least of these, you have done it unto me."

[VFW]

This nation does not need right-wing religious nut bags like myself to point out that anytime, and anywhere, you see the poorest of the poor suffering, living in unsurvivable loss and misery, tortured by neglect and platitudes, that you are witnessing the results of destructive liberal policy’s put forth by democrats.

[Alice Venturi]

And, of course, VFW, you are going to offer support for your absurd assertion, right? Otherwise, it's just so much hot air.

[nf cowan]

If VFW's assertion is as 'absurd' as Alice claims it to be, then it needn't be 'supported' by anything.

It can just stand by itelf.

Alice's question, on the other hand, in which she asks (demands?) VFW to support an absurd assertion is itself, by definition, absurd.

Once again, Alice's rhetorical genius shows through as her own hot air takes her to greater and greater heights over the vast Fuzzy-Thinking Liberal Mountain Range.

[JoeG]

NF -
VFW is basically claiming that God is a conservative Republican punishing the US for liberal Democratic policies. At a time when conservative Republicans have been the majority ruling party and pushing most of their own policies through, no less. It makes no sense, and does come off as quite absurd. If, as Alice requested, VFW would choose to support his claim and tell us where he is coming from, maybe his mindset, if not the claim itself, won't seem so absurd. Maybe it will. I certainly don't agree with his premise, and from what I have seen, neither do most religious conservatives. I support Alice, I believe his claim to sound absurd. VFW, where are you coming from on this? What liberal policies is God taking revenge for? Why do you think God sides with conservatives over liberals all the time? Was his own son not one of the biggest liberals in the history of the world?

[VFW]

The point has nothing to do with God taking sides or punishing anyone the point is and history confirms it Liberal social polices have done more harm than good for the poor and this nation. But the sad thing is the Republicans aren’t changing anything they are just following the same old failed policies, bigger government more entitlements, throwing countless dollars at public education all these things have increased under the so called conservative Bush adm. And what are the results, things are worst than ever! No Bush is no conservative he just Liberal lite. If this country wants to continue this failed liberal path than they should elect a professional liberal a Democrat! But I believe Americans don’t want the same old tired crap, they want a different direction and thought they were getting it with the contract with America, but Republicans blew it, all they care about is holding power just like the democrats did for 50 years! Neither party has an original idea or the nerve to try one; it’s easier to follow the status quo than to change direction.

[Streak]

Well as long as you don't make assertions you can't back up!

the point is and history confirms it Liberal social polices have done more harm than good for the poor and this nation.

Nice analysis. How does history confirm this beyond your opinion? Can you give us something beyond logical fallacies and your own self-righteous sense that God agrees with you?

[VFW]

Just look at our cities and you can see that 40 yeras of liberal policy's have failed, how much more evidence do you need?

The government spends $11,120 on every poor family in America, and such families see very little of that money. Income redistribution is a lie, with most social programs dollars going to bureaucrats and government workers. That's no solution. In reforming welfare we need to enable the recipients to get themselves out of the system.
Now of course we can ever end all welfare. For as Jesus said once, "The poor shall be with you always." It would be terribly unrealistic to maintain that family, friends and private charity can adequately provide for every need of every disabled person.
I am of the belief that the biggest detriment to African-Americans and several other minority groups today is the welfare/education state created under Lyndon Johnson and white liberals. White liberals have done more to kill the black race than any klansman or nazi. Since the start of the "War On Poverty" in 1965, the United States has spent more than $5 trillion trying to ease the plight of the poor. What we have received for this massive investment is -- primarily -- more poverty.
There can be no serious attempt to solve the problem of poverty in America without addressing our failed government-run school system. Nearly forty years after Brown vs. Board of Education, America's schools are becoming increasingly segregated, not on the basis of race, but on income. Wealthy and middle class parents are able to send their children to private schools, or at least move to a district with better public schools. Poor families are trapped -- forced to send their children to a public school system that fails to educate.
It is time to break up the public education monopoly and give all parents the right to decide what school their children will attend. It is essential to restore choice and the discipline of the marketplace to education. Only a free market in education will provide the improvement in education necessary to enable millions of Americans to escape poverty. As one of these choices, home schooling and small private schooling wihtout accreditation, must be defended and preserved.

[Streak]

Well, by all means, let's use the "observational" evidence. Just "look at our cities," you say. No culpability to the corporations? No responsibility to the conservatives who have demeaned blacks over time? What about conservative pro-wealth policies? Or perhaps banks who red-line?

Nope, in VFW, only liberals make mistakes. Nice polemic. But hardly clear causation.

No offense to Carlos, but the recent trolls have clearly diminished the level of discussion. A VFW assuming that he speaks for God or that liberals have cause every discernible problem with the poor makes me think the trolls are taking over. Alice? JoeG? Athiest? What do you think?

[The Atheist]

**The government spends $11,120 on every poor family in America, and such families see very little of that money.**

Cite.

**Income redistribution is a lie, with most social programs dollars going to bureaucrats and government workers.**

1) I have yet to meet the person who wants "income redistribution," and our welfare system certainly does not claim to do that, and never has.

2) If the people who work for the government as part of the welfare system weren't getting paid, they'd just be part of the system.

**That's no solution. In reforming welfare we need to enable the recipients to get themselves out of the system.**

Nothing about the "system" you have mentioned prevents the recipients from getting out of said system. Republicans have long since passed measures that cut people off of welfare after a certain amount of time. Congratulations, your side already won that fight. The reason people can't get off welfare is because there is a huge discrepancy between wages and cost of living, particularly in cities, where most of the jobs are...this is because of republican policies that have kept the minimum wage low, denied living wage, and allowed corporations to institute the following:

In 1965, CEOs in major companies made 24 times more than the average worker. In 2003, CEOs earned 185 times more than the average worker. "Wages" in State of Working America 2004-2005, Economic Policy Institute, www.epinet.org

Frequently poor people can't get a higher paying job because they lack education. They lack education because they don't have money to go to school. They lack the money to go to school because they can't get a higher paying job (and they don't have parents who can afford to put them through college). They work at pizza hut, barely make rent, don't have the money for reliable birth control so eventually they have kids of their own, and because financial troubles factor in greatly to marital stress that leads to divorce, it's no wonder they can't stay married.

**There can be no serious attempt to solve the problem of poverty in America without addressing our failed government-run school system.**

Indeed.

**Nearly forty years after Brown vs. Board of Education, America's schools are becoming increasingly segregated, not on the basis of race, but on income.**

Republicans have been winning the battle to cut funding to public education. Buildings are falling apart, classes are overcrowded, there's a shortage of teachers and yet the government doesn't want to hire anymore, because then they would have to be paid their miserable salary. Perhaps you think public education is an inherently bad idea. I don't. Republicans have been the ones pulling out the foundation, brick by brick.

**Poor families are trapped -- forced to send their children to a public school system that fails to educate.**

Because schools are underfunded, overcrowded, and behind the times.

**It is time to break up the public education monopoly and give all parents the right to decide what school their children will attend.**

Y'know, that...or actually fund public education.

**It is essential to restore choice and the discipline of the marketplace to education. Only a free market in education will provide the improvement in education necessary to enable millions of Americans to escape poverty.**

So the "free market" that results from the collapse of public education, the "free market" where all schools become private businesses that provide their services at steeper and steeper prices (as is happening with universities) will be the savior of the poor? Forgive me if I fail to see how that works.

**As one of these choices, home schooling and small private schooling wihtout accreditation, must be defended and preserved.**

Indeed. I think the single mother working double-overtime at pizza hut so she can pay rent should also be responsible for home schooling her child, since she won't be able to afford to send him or her to private school once republicans finally demolish the vestiges of the system we established out of the belief that everyone deserves an equal chance at education.

Apparently we see different things when we "just look at our cities."

[Alice Venturi]

Trolls move on strange tides, Streak. They flow, and then they ebb again. The VFWs and the Cowans of the world can be found anywhere you go. Take comfort in knowing that you annoy them every bit as much as they annoy you, whether they have the balls to admit it or not.

And really, Streak, don't you think that, currently, we have a really rather pathetic bunch of trolls? They're either...ummm...not terribly bright or they're pompous, ego-centric posers who mistake name-calling for rational argument. Good grief, even Dave was more interesting.

[The Atheist]

Streak,

It is a different crowd than it was six months ago. Recently the discussion has been much more politically centered, rather than doctrinal. I mean, which is better, to drop a single bible quote as evidence that everyone else is going to hell, or to say "just look at the state of things and see that I'm right."

I think (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that you, JoeG and I are now the old hats of this place, followed by Alice, Kevin, and dlw. We seem to have lost those such as Chamey and GWB along the way. We seem to have picked up an nf cowan and VFW.

With all due respect, you and Alice particularly seem to be on a much shorter leash than you used to be. Even if people drop some ideas that we feel like can be easily dismissed, it doesn't mean that we should just dismiss them, especially not by just calling them trolls or saying that they're "clearly" off their rocker or something to that effect. I don't think that's the kind of person any of us wants to be; we're here to discuss, and be civil (most of the time). JoeG in particular has been good about always keeping it professional. Perhaps the rest of us (myself included) have just gotten a little too comfortable with being the dominating voices around here.

We're fortunate to have people to challenge our ideas...it seems to me that their arguments are less than well-formed sometimes, but at least they're not just popping in to call us all faggots or something. If we feel like we could do with a better crowd, then we should make it a point to keep things professional so that when people from a better crowd pass through, they see lively and civil discussion, rather than a bunch of "talk-to-the-hand," going on. Anyway, that's just my two cents.

[VFW]

Oh boy is this an arrogant bunch of elites, wow I would guess you all live in the sheltered campus life protected form the real world, right? I would blame Conservative policies if any ever got enacted, but except for the first few years of republican control, conservative policies haven’t seen the light of day. Because the Republicans were quickly over taken by Neo-Conservatives who are just old hawkish liberals who left the democrat party due to it Marxist Socialist anti-capitalist base and you guys think Conservatives are in control. No it just more of the same old big government good old boys give away programs that the democrats had, the only thing that has changed is the good old boys.

[Deacon Tim]

You're right, my dear Atheist friend. The tenor has grown a bit dreary of late around here, what with all the sniping, some of which I've fostered. Sometimes its easier to attack than to reason.

This is supposed to be a place of Jesus Politics, and there's been precious little Jesus in the political detritus.

So here's a theological question, going back to the original thread: Is Annie right that the passion of the Christ is thrust before us everytime we see the poorest of the suffering?

Annie obviously wrote her post in the midst of the overwhelming grief that we all felt in the few days after the storm. But now the work of rebuilding is before us: what will we do to insure that our nation begins to really tackle the unfinished business of racial and class inequities, while really caring for those displaced by the storm? It's not right for us "left-wing religious nut bags" to "Michael Moore" the President and his people while simultaneously decrying the "Swift Boating" of Nagin and Blanco.

Thanks for reminding me that some of the holiest people I have known are not "believers." And that some of the damnedest are.

[Streak]

I admit to being on a shorter leash. Something about the recent additions has left me cold. Perhaps it is the fact that they never answer questions. VFW just perpetuated that by avoiding our questions and calling us elites.

But you are right, Atheist. I am increasingly annoyed. I will work on that. I agree that being challenged isn't a bad thing.

[The Atheist]

VFW:

**Oh boy is this an arrogant bunch of elites, wow I would guess you all live in the sheltered campus life protected form the real world, right?**

You are not without point, but everyone has off weeks; I hope we can mutually be big enough to stop all the name calling.

**I would blame Conservative policies if any ever got enacted, but except for the first few years of republican control, conservative policies haven’t seen the light of day.**

Again you have a point. Most neo-cons are not actually "conservative," but most will say that they are, whether by their own error or through the desire to pin some word on their chest as a kind of identity. The REAL conservatives have been letting them get away with it, so the likes of George Bush is what now passes for conservatism. I don't like it either, but I'm willing to bet you voted for him. I didn't. Some true conservatives saw through Bush's facade, well before the 2004 election; some tried to get the word out (http://www.nypress.com/17/31/news&columns/WilliamBryk.cfm), but few listened.

**Because the Republicans were quickly over taken by Neo-Conservatives who are just old hawkish liberals who left the democrat party due to it Marxist Socialist anti-capitalist base**

I don't buy two things:

1) the democratic party base is marxist, socialist, or anti-capitalist. Some of the most vocal "liberals" come of as being a little bit of one of the above things; they are not the party base.

2) Neo-cons (who are now powerful enough to essentially run the republican party) are former "liberals" or democrats. No. It is not possible, within the last 10 years, nor even in the last 40, that a significant number of powerful liberals suddenly changed sides and took over the republican party to serve their corporate, religious, and Ayn Rand-loving interests.

**and you guys think Conservatives are in control. No it just more of the same old big government good old boys give away programs that the democrats had, the only thing that has changed is the good old boys.**

They haven't changed! They even have the same LAST NAME! The people in control pass themselves off as "conservative" and you let them get away with it because you keep voting for them! As far as the "big government give away programs" you're talking about, republicans won the fight over welfare; it's a puny thing now, there's only so much you can complain about. So why are we still in debt as a nation? It's not because we're giving truckloads of money to poor people.

[Alice Venturi]

Atheist:

With all due respect, you and Alice particularly seem to be on a much shorter leash than you used to be.

True enough, though I'd say "fuse" rather than "leash". The school year has started, and there's more things to do and less time to do them in than in recent months. Not an excuse, but certainly a reason.

Challenges are fine - that's why I'm here. School-yard name-calling is not fine; it gets ignored.

[Alice Venturi]

VFW:

Oh boy is this an arrogant bunch of elites, wow I would guess you all live in the sheltered campus life protected form the real world, right?

No, this is a bunch of friends talking to each other. The whole "sheltered campus life" thing isn't really applicable to the most of us.

...and you guys think Conservatives are in control.

No, not really. Personally, I think the radical Corporatists are in control. However, the Republican Party and the current administration keep telling us all that they're "conservatives", so who ought we to believe? Our own eyes or the Grand Old Party? After all, the administration has promised that they're not lying to us.

/irony

No it just more of the same old big government good old boys give away programs that the democrats had...

You really need to get over this. The sort of welfare programs you rail against in your posts above went away in the 1990's, during a Democratic administration, I might add. They're gone. Kaput. Fini.

No more Aid to Families with Dependent Children. No more Welfare Queens. The Foodstamp program has been cut a couple of times, including once just recently.

Even the various state MedicAid programs are cutting back substantially. Here in Texas the Lege tried to throw indigent children off MedicAid, and they may yet succeed. Alabama is denying Medicaid coverage to children who are totally disabled.

So, y'know, VFW, you've got what you apparently wanted. I don't understand why you're still whining about welfare.

[nf cowan]

On September 12, 2005, JoeG posted the following:

"...If, as Alice requested, VFW would choose to support his claim and tell us where he is coming from, maybe his mindset, if not the claim itself, won't seem so absurd..."

JoeG, of course you are entitled to your own opinion, but I think your argument is a disingenous one here.

Alice was making a statement via her rhetorical question of VFW. Her 'question' if it can be deemed a question at all, was posed for the sole purpose of drawing VFW out so she could figuratively bash him at some later point in time.

There is no possibility of a rational exchange of ideas between Alice and VFW on this subject, JoeG. If you think there is, then I can only think you are deceiving yourself.

Alice's liberal biases are as deeply entrenched as anti-semitic biases are entrenched in those who practice Wahabi version of Islam. Her hate of the right is as plain as the hate that the KKK has of blacks.

While the targets of the biases & hate are indeed different, the essential qualitative aspects of these phenomena remain strikingly similar, if not identical.

This concept was expounded by perhaps that most famous of philosophical longshoremen, Erich Hoffer, in his 'The True Believer'. Written about a half century ago, this relatively short book still rings true. Are you familiar with it?

[nf cowan]

On September 12, 2005, Deacon Tim posted the following:

"...The tenor has grown a bit dreary of late around here, what with all the sniping, some of which I've fostered. Sometimes its easier to attack than to reason..."

Dreary?

C'mon Deacon Blues, lighten up. This forum is a laugh.

First of all, there is no rational conversation possible with the likes of a an Alice or a Streak. But I like that quality about them.

Notice how the Atheist's remarks worked as a kind of opiate and, for a moment at least, calmed them both down. I would be willing to venture a guess that sometime in the not-so-different future, Alice's short fuse will short-circuit again and Streaker's annoyance will give way to a full blown temper tantrum. C'mon Atheist, I want the old versions of Alice and Streakster back.

Anyways...Tim... when you wrote "...there's been precious 'little Jesus' in the political detritus, I want to ask you...just how little is that 'little Jesus' you are referring to in your comment? And were you referring to his height or girth?

And what's so precious about him? But I digress...

Keep smiling, bro.

The way I keep dreariness at bay is by giving thanks to God everyday that I am an atheist.

(But I am not The Atheist)

[VFW]

Wow, I see you all know each other very well and understand each others eccentricity you nailed it down fairly well, except I thought you were holding back on their deeper emotional problems. But as humans we tend to survive and carry on no matter of severely we were abused by life. I personally found the incoherent diatribe more reveling and entertaining but what are you going to do? Conservatism has never really gotten off the ground and more than likely never will, because people are basically lazy and European socialism is like and opiate where we exchange our liberty & freedom for cradle to grave daycare. It doesn’t really matter what system we are under because are freedoms are slowly being taken away anyhow by an over powering massive central government, which unfortunately has gotten larger instead of leaner!

It is disappointing that the Republican Party has not institutionalized the supply-side principles of low tax rates, benign regulations, rule-based monetary policy, liberalized trade, prudent government spending and smaller government. Republican politicians campaign for election on these principles, but when they get into office, they abandon them. President Bush has been a stalwart on pro-growth policies for our nation, but Congressional Republicans have been mute on what needs to be done going forward. The keys to recovery from nature's wrath and governments' incompetence are the same principles that President Reagan used to recover from the economic stagnation and social malaise of the Carter years. These principles are necessary over the long run to ensure lasting prosperity and essential during times of crisis to restore normalcy and increase prosperity.
Prudent" spending means spending whatever amount of money is necessary to achieve the limited role assigned to government in our constitutional scheme. Government should spend whatever it takes to deal with the aftermath of Katrina, but Katrina should not be used as a blank check to ratchet up government spending permanently through ill-considered new government programs.
Hopefully the Republicans won’t be bamboozled by the left's exploiting of Katrina to lobby for bigger, more centralized government. It wasn't just the hurricane that caused the calamity; it was a catastrophic failure of government at all levels.
It was also ironic that the most efficient agencies were the faith based charities, (Salvation Army) (Feed the Children) ECT, and corporate America (Wal-Mart) and the US Military, and the biggest failure was the government run agencies.
True Conservatism is the best bet for America, but more than likely to our own demise we are going to stay the course to European style socialism.

[Streak]

Ath, this will mean more of the stupid schoolyard idiocy from NF, but I really don't see much value here. VFW doesn't even respond to criticism, and NF just likes to put people down. Has he posited anything of substance yet? Oh, yeah, the whole "war is common" thing. But he likes to call Alice and I irrational and refer to me in demeaning ways. Fine.

I am arguing with people who say that liberals have caused every sin in America, yet for NF, my liberal bias is just as entrenched as anti-semitism is for radical Muslims. Nice.

Hmm. What am I missing here? There is nothing here to "debate." I think you know and I know some others here recognize that I am perfectly willing to discuss issues on this blog. I am a liberal and don't deny that. But this is ridiculous. This isn't a debate any more than the Presidential "debates" were.

I do miss Chamy and GWB. Hell, at this point, I would welcome JAB's brand of rhetoric. In the meantime, this isn't interesting or fun right now.

Maybe later. Call this a short fuse if you want. NF will call me names. VFW will see me as a closeted elite. Have fun with that.

[JoeG]

Hey All -
Sorry to be jumping in here so late into the discussion, I did not get a chance to log on last night. I have several comments to make on several things being discussed here, so this may take a couple of posts to cover, so bear with me. I'll try and be as brief and organized as possible.

Streak posted:
"No offense to Carlos, but the recent trolls have clearly diminished the level of discussion. A VFW assuming that he speaks for God or that liberals have cause every discernible problem with the poor makes me think the trolls are taking over. Alice? JoeG? Athiest? What do you think?"

Atheist then posted:
"With all due respect, you and Alice particularly seem to be on a much shorter leash than you used to be. Even if people drop some ideas that we feel like can be easily dismissed, it doesn't mean that we should just dismiss them, especially not by just calling them trolls or saying that they're "clearly" off their rocker or something to that effect. I don't think that's the kind of person any of us wants to be; we're here to discuss, and be civil (most of the time). JoeG in particular has been good about always keeping it professional. Perhaps the rest of us (myself included) have just gotten a little too comfortable with being the dominating voices around here."

First, thanks for the kind words Athe. I try to keep an open mind, but I too have been guilty of snapping at some whose ideas I didn't agree with. I think we all need to chill a bit here. Streak and Alice are very well versed and well educated, and I truly enjoy reading their thoughtful comments. Streak, as you have already admitted, you've had a very short fuse lately. Take a deep breath and try rereading some comments here from those on the other side of the discussion (VFW, NF, etc.). Post some contructive comments. Yeah, NF can be quite pointless many times, as he seems to be focusing on jabbing at you and Alice rather than discussing the topic at hand. Clearly above, he is trying to get you and Alice to blow up. But he is wrong in saying that there is no rational discussion with Alice and Streak. Cowan, make an attempt at such rational discussion without the sarcasm and put downs. You'd be surprised at how interesting a conversation these two can provide. And when NF chooses to discuss a topic, stick with it because he has had some interesting things to say as well, whether I agree with them or not.
Likewise, I don't agree with VFW's position that liberal policies are to blame for our country's woes. But I'm willing to talk about it with him and see where he is coming from and to help him see why I disagree without insulting his point of view.
Alice has had numerous excellent, thought provoking posts. But she can (again as she well admits) be very sarcastic, and not everyone responds to the sarcasm the same way. Some see it for the humor it contains and the point she is trying to get across, others take it more personally and won't respond with the discussion we would all prefer to have.
I too (can't believe I'm saying this) miss Chamy, as well as GWB. JAB I can do without, as he refuses to talk Jesus Politics with non-Christians like me. But even though some new posters here can come off as trolls at times, let's not confuse being a troll with being a conservative right winger with an opinion vastly different from our own. There are many people still posting here with good things to say. Deacon Tim, Steven Anderson, Mainline Protestant, Alice Clay, just to name a few, have had very good posts here. Atheist, I always enjoy your posts as a good read with many excellent thought-provoking points that both Christians and non should be able to relate to and comment on. dlw and Kevin (kgp) as well. NF, VFW, even Dave when he is off his violence kick, all bring good discussion points from another point of view.
If the discussion is diminishing, it is because we are letting it. Let's get back to commenting on Carlos' posts and each other's opinions of those posts. We all (me included) need to keep the personal snipes and crap to the side. And if someone posts something personal and nasty, don't feed into it. Ignore it and keep it to yourself unless you can be constructive about it. NF, you need to pocket the sarcasm too. I mean, even your response to Deacon Tim ("How little is that little Jesus...") was unnecessary. I get you were trying to go for the humor. But that seems to be the case in almost all of your posts. If you have opinions on the subjects being discussed, most of us would rather hear those.

Carlos, keep up the good work. New people are going to come and go here. For Carlos' sake, I hope new people do keep coming here, as he has provided an excellent forum for discussion. Let's make use of it and keep the high school antics to the playground. We're all better than that, and I'm sure we have much to learn from each other, especially if we all have the common goal of making this contry better for ourselves and future generations.

[nf cowan]

Streak composed the following...

"...In the meantime, this isn't interesting or fun right now..."

It's not fun or interesting because you're teetering, Streaky boy.

Just let it out. After spewing a full-blown tantrum you will feel much better. Believe me.

And Remember... no matter what the content of your posts are, Streakmeister, you will always have Alice standing beside you holding your figurative hand and empathizing with you about all the meanies.

Let it out!

Let it out!

Yeehaw!

C'mon man...I'm counting on you!